Cub Scouts Shanghai: Thomas Ashby Interview
- Was it challenging to establish a cub scouts association in China that could represent the values you desired and hold activities you felt necessary for the boys?
I’ve been involved with Boy Scouts International for about five years now. I think the first thing is once you get involved you realize there’s such a network. The amount of information is amazing. When I first got here I had just come from Taiwan. Two of my sons had been in the scouts at the time, and it was really hard to find a group initially. It was very difficult as I’m sure you’re familiar with the internet here. I think what you find with expatriates overseas is that they’re in transit. People come and go. And so every year you’re kind of starting all over again. That’s what you find. But I think what you find too is that with kids you’ve got sporting events etc, and the parents will drop their children off and leave. But with scouts the parents are typically involved. They know what’s going on with their kids and they’re really supporting them. So to answer your question, I think setting it up I’m sure maybe took a little time, but it wasn’t too hard because you get a lot of support from the scouts. For example this year they wanted me to be a cub master but it turns out I can’t, and someone already said they’ll step in. There are always people there. The people that stay realize the value of scouting and what it has to offer boys.
- The Cub Scouts consist of such a diverse group of boys, what is the experience like observing the commonalities and differences between the members? Is it vastly different from having an entirely American group?
Last year we had people from Europe, China, Chinese Americans, andpeople from the U.S. who came back to Shanghai. I think that’s just a given thatit’s going to be diverse. But I think the parents and the kids who stick with it tend to be Americans. I talked to a French father just recently who said to me“When I was in France I was a boy scout, and I had a great experience in scouting growing up, and want my boy involved.” So yes it’s a little bit more diverse than what you would find in the U.S.
In the USA, typically boy scouts are tied to a church, a school, or some other location; however, The challenge in China is that these types of resources aren’t as abundant. So what that means for us, what’s been challenging is how do we find a location where people can meet? I’ll give you an example, the boy scouts that my son is going to be joining this year; they’ve been meeting at where a lot of foreigners call “compounds”, gated communities. They often have a center, or a gym, a fitness center, or maybe a little restaurant, or some function rooms. They often have to meet in a function room, or outside in the park area. They are able to meet in these compounds because a scout parent lives there. My group last year which was just my son and one other boy had to meet in a house. So I guess the biggest challenge here is finding a location and finding a group that will support you. And then the second challenge would be Shanghai’s size. Even just Puxi alone is very big. Typically we don’t even see the Pudong scouts becauseit’s just so far and people are too busy to commute such a distance. Right now as we’re speaking I’m working with a woman who works at YCIS, an international school. We’re trying to get them to support us. The reason why we chose YCISis because of its location. YCIS is central. In my opinion the challenge is finding a location that will support you, and that is convenient enough.
Something I feel about Shanghai compared to Taiwan is maybe not everywhere, but you can always find a place to camp in Taiwan near rivers, mountains, and the ocean..IN Shanghai, forget about it. We’ve been to a few places and its ok but they typically tend to be parks that I would say are over landscaped. It’s not really like in the U.S. where you have a circle of rocks around the fire pit, and find a spot to pitch a tent. The parks here are groomed. There’s nothing like a real American style campground. With scouting they always say“Make sure to keep the ‘out’ in scouting” because it’s all about the boys being outdoors and growing through outdoor activities. So that’s one of the challenges we have which we might not face back home.
- In 1909 members of the British Boys Brigade represented the cosmopolitan but culturally western part of the city. Would you say that’s an accurate perception of what your boy scouts represent in part?
Yes, absolutely I think the cub scouts and boy scouts is typically a Western and almost exclusively an American group in China. There’s the International Scouting Movement but here in my opinion, we’re the Boy Scouts of America. We do have scouts from other nationalities and they do add an international flavor to the group (as some of the parents have been in scouting back home). Being an American, the Boy Scouts has historical and cultural ties to our country, so in a way, it’s really a piece of America that exists here. If not maybe physically, but the American Boy Scouting spirit isvery much tied to it. And I think that’s why a lot of people do it because they want that kind of experience for their boys as they grow into young men.
- Chinese Boy Scout groups began in 1913 with the help of British and American scoutmasters. Do you find that Chinese groups similar to the scouts use them as a model today?
I have no idea. I know that in Taiwan they have the boy scouts, whom I never really saw. I know they mirrored it to the U.S. scouts but they did have their own slogans that were similar. I’m looking forward to finding ways for us to be exposed to the international scouting movement.
- Do you use the internet to interconnect with other Cub Scout groups around the world?
Well we’re a part of the Far East Council so we’re related to I believeJapan, Korea, Taiwan, and I think also Hong Kong and even maybe Thailand. I think we communicate to get supplies from them in that sense. Other than that, I know in Shanghai our group uses WeChat. We use WeChat a lot in China as we find it’s very convenient for people to communicate. I do know that scouts have an international communication day where they originally started with short wave radios and now they’re using the internet (JOTA/JOTI). I thought about getting us involved as I think it would be fun. I hope we could do it this year and see what happens.
- What are your thoughts aboutscout participation in JOTI the annual international Scouting event that allows Scouts from around the world gather online to learn about other cultures and the activities in which other Scouts participate?
I think it would be a very cool thing to do. I think it would be a lot of fun and I’d like to try it once. This year we are planning to incorporate JOTI (Jamboree on the Internet) into one of our activities. IT’s my hope that we can expose the boys not just to the potential for communication but also to the different boy scouts in China, as well as scouting groups in other nations around the world.
My feeling, I think a lot of countries have a lot of scouting groups, but typically overseas it’s the Boy Scouts of America. Why does that happen? The only thing I can guess is because we have larger numbers in expatriates. And I also think the scouting movement in the U.S. is pretty powerful. They own so much land and lakes and camps. In the 1920’s,30’s, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s it was huge. It was a huge movement and it just expanded. And you’ve got so many famous people who got involved with it, like Bill Marriot, who owns the Marriot Corporation. So what that means is that it’s so well known in the U.S. When you go overseas, you’re typically not going to see the scouts of France; you’re not going to see the scouts of Italy either, because they don’t have the numbers. Probably part of this is because the U.S. had army bases in Japan and Korea. Because of that military presence, families wanted their kids involved as you’ve got the resources there, the people there and the systems there. It’s for this reason that you typically don’t get a lot of international scouts. Even if they are, they come to the Boy Scouts of America. When they join the Boy Scouts of America they’re using our system. For example we have the American flag on our right arm. They have the choice of taking it off, but they can’t replace it with their own flag. We were as liberal as saying you can take it off as it’s not your flag, but you’re still following our program.
- What are the greatest differences of the Cub Scout groups here than in the U.S.?
Again, I’d have to go back to just finding locations. I don’t think you have the community resources. In my opinion it’s harder to find things such as going to parks or visiting the police station. My sons went to the fire station and we had to set up a registry and give them our passports. In the U.S. we call the fire station and let them know the cub scouts are coming down and they respond with a “Hey! Sure! We’ll see you next Tuesday!” Just having that community is something we don’t have here. You don’t have the types of resourceshere that you do in the U.S. because of the way the government regulates tings. It’s harder to get these resources. I don’t represent everybody; I’ve only been here a year and a half so maybe this is just my experience. For example we had Scout Sunday, and I thought “Well there is a synagogue”, a place I too visited when I was a scout back in the U.S.So I went to them and asked if the scouts could visit, and they said “We’re not allowed to have outsiders here because they see us as promoting our religion which we’re not allowed to do. We’re only allowed to give this service to people who are already Jewish.” The Chinese can’t just come in and take a look. It’s all very controlled. In Taiwan, I remember sometime telling me “We took the boys for Scout Sunday to a Buddhist Temple, and they loved it!” Here? Where are you going to go? It’s a bigger challenge.
That’s just an example of one of the challenges you could possibly have. I know people have been involved with charity work to get the boy scouts involved, and we’ve got the international schools as well but the resources aren’t as easy to have. You’ve got to think more and work a little bit harder in that sense. In the U.S. if you want to do an event you just go down to the park. But here where is there a suitable park?
And of course you have more Chinese people and mixed families. I’m a mixed family. Here teh pool of people is much more diverse in ethnic and national backgrounds.
- Is your value system more so those of the Cub Scouts of America or do you think it is somewhat influenced by the many diverse scout groups in China?
We have a guide book that states that the purpose of scouting is to instill citizenship and help boys make ethical choices. I was a boy scout thirty years ago so this could be a bit dated but the church is often involved. There was a religious component in the States and here I don’t find that as much. It really depends on the family. I guess it’s the same in the U.S. too but in the U.S. the church connection seemed stronger.Here it’s really up to you. You have those who are very much involved in it, and those who are peripherally involved. Outside of that I think the values are regular scouting values. We follow the handbook. I don’t think Chinese culture really plays much into it. I really think it’s the families and the parents that play a stronger role in the boy’s experience. Overall I don’t think it’s so different from the U.S.
- Do you think this experience is to some degree more beneficial for the boys in Shanghai than in the U.S., as the cub scouts teaches them about community, character development, self reliance which are all so important to have as expats?
Yeah I do, I think cub scouts helps boys. We focus on “do your best” that’s the motto. I think that it gets instilled in them. For Boy Scouts it’salso boys leading boys. The scouts teach boys how to become leaders. I think that it can be very powerful and help them grow. I think being an expatriate too you have to be more resourceful. As for the outdoor aspect if helps them with survival mentality. It’s like moving to a new country. You need to find a place to live. Once you set up camp you want to start exploring, but not too far. And that mentality will help them as expatriate children. There’s a system to it and there’s a path, and you can do it without scouts. But for me I really love the idea of boys leading boys. The leader that I’m working with here in Puxi believes that “It’s the boys. I’m not teaching them. We facilitate you, we mentor you, and review you but it’s you guys doing this.” That’s the real power of boy scouts. When a boy comes in and starts off, he may have small responsibility and then he slowly builds up his responsibility base and he becomes the leader of a patrol (group of boys). That’s the system behind the leadership component.. That’s the other purpose of scouting. We do have the advancement track, representing that “you’re learning and doing this to reachthis level.” Although that depends on the boys and how far they want to go. But regardless of your advancement, your rank, it’s all about them learning outdoor skills and becoming a better leader.
I do remember one of the reasons why I wanted to get my boy involved originally was because I thought he’ll learn more about America. See my son was growing up in Taiwan, my wife is Taiwanese, and he was going to a local school learning Chinese. I speak English to him but where is he going to learn about the Pledge of Allegiance or about American history? Let’s try the Cub Scouts and see how it goes. I think really that children living overseas are either getting a local experience in schools which plays heavily in their development, or they’rein an international schooling environment where their classmates can be fromyou name it. I think the scouts are what give them a taste of American history, culture, folklore, and beliefs. It really brings something to them that they may not get if they’re not involved.
- What does the future of the Cub Scouts of Shanghai look like to you?
It looks fantastic. It looks great. I really believe that. I think the Boy Scouts of America hasdone a great job. They reorganized the advancement path for Cub Scouts last year. They took the old system and they modified it making it more in line with the boys of today. I think that there are a lot of resources that are coming together. We’re building this up so when new kids and new families come in they’re going to be able to plug in easily. It’s going to be a lot easier for new boys to participate. Again, , the constant turnover of familiesis going to be the challenge – that’s always going to be the challenge. What I’m hoping is that we’re building some systems here of getting people together.
For more information you can contact Tom Ashby at [email protected]
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